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Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

  1. #3121

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Quote Originally Posted by MetaMario View Post
    I mentioned this last week, how the form needed less "argh I am the prince of all Saiyans" and more family considering.

    ....darn, now I'm thinking about Hiromi Tsuru :(
    And it would be a great callback (that isn't just for fanservice) to Z where he wrongfully thought having a family to protect is what made Goku strong. But then there'd be this really cool moment where protecting his family DID make Vegeta stronger!

  2. #3122

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    I actually do think most of the callbacks Super does do make sense in context. Just talking about the ToP here. RoF is like the most obvious "there for no reason" thing. Freeza being in the ToP actually does have basis.

    I think Kale having Broly's form is probably the only really "this is just kinda there" thing.

    Like, Krillin's stinky shoe, the reference to the invisible man, Goku using Kaioken 20x (it makes sense against Hit's adaptability, too) and Genki Dama on Jiren all make sense considering the opponents they're facing. Final Flash, too. Jiren is meant to be a really tough opponent. To show that, the characters have to show everything they've got. In general Goku using afterimage and all of the variety of techniques he has makes sense. He is supposed to be a master martial artist.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; January 20th, 2018 at 08:01 PM.

  3. #3123

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    I still wonder if Vegeta and Goku will fuse as a last option. They have different, let's call it, upgrades now. Are kawaii form and Kaiyoken compatible/comparable?
    Last edited by Wintermute; January 21st, 2018 at 12:43 AM. Reason: New year, new Av ^^
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  4. #3124

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizuchan View Post
    I actually do think most of the callbacks Super does do make sense in context. Just talking about the ToP here. RoF is like the most obvious "there for no reason" thing. Freeza being in the ToP actually does have basis.

    I think Kale having Broly's form is probably the only really "this is just kinda there" thing.

    Like, Krillin's stinky shoe, the reference to the invisible man, Goku using Kaioken 20x (it makes sense against Hit's adaptability, too) and Genki Dama on Jiren all make sense considering the opponents they're facing. Final Flash, too. Jiren is meant to be a really tough opponent. To show that, the characters have to show everything they've got. In general Goku using afterimage and all of the variety of techniques he has makes sense. He is supposed to be a master martial artist.
    The problem isn't with any single instance, but with the image that emerges when you combine them, they're too reliant on call-backs and what was established previously. Kaiokenx20 is fine. Genki-dama is fine. New form is fine. Freeza giving Goku his energy and repaying his debt is fine. All of these in succession? Not so fine anymore.

    And my biggest complaint, Kame-sennin is 300 years old master martial artist and throughout the whole ToP he uses only the techniques he used against Goku, plius Mafuba, nothing new, nothing creative, just nothing. Or Jimeze, when Goku first arrived on earth he said that Yardats have lots of strange tecniques, but he only had the time to learn IT. Then actual Yardat appears and... he only spams IT! Tenshinhan was also creative warrior with lots of tricks up his sleeves who never stopped training and he... somehow didn't come up with anything else for half his life?
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  5. #3125

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    The "never learning new techniques" problem goes for the previous series, too. Always bothered me so thanks for pointing it out. Tenshinhan always only uses his Kikoho. Krillin only ever has his Destructo Disc. Lots of Kamehameha spam.

    At least the ToP tried to put a new spin on some old stuff like the Disc and stronger Solar Flare. It also actually did introduce a series of new techniques, which hasn't happened in forever.

    Goku using Ki to make a shield around him, the minefield technique and the new Destructo Disc attack are all new. Ultra Instinct is a very different form from any other Goku has gotten. Even the Kamehameha against Kefla tried something new with the technique.

    I mean if it bothers you no matter what, nothing to do here, but I'm okay with it if it at least makes sense in context. If it's used because of a legitimate reason. The Mafuba in the FT arc made sense to me, too. It wasn't *only* there for a callback. There were other reasons for it to be used.

  6. #3126
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    [QUOTE=Kizuchan;3858437
    Goku using Ki to make a shield around him, the minefield technique and the new Destructo Disc attack are all new. Ultra Instinct is a very different form from any other Goku has gotten. Even the Kamehameha against Kefla tried something new with the technique. [/QUOTE]I think he also used a foot beam at some point, that never happened before right?

    The only technique that is overused in Super that I don't really like is the energy ball spam.

  7. #3127

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizuchan
    The "never learning new techniques" problem goes for the previous series, too. Always bothered me so thanks for pointing it out. Tenshinhan always only uses his Kikoho. Krillin only ever has his Destructo Disc. Lots of Kamehameha spam.

    At least the ToP tried to put a new spin on some old stuff like the Disc and stronger Solar Flare. It also actually did introduce a series of new techniques, which hasn't happened in forever.

    Goku using Ki to make a shield around him, the minefield technique and the new Destructo Disc attack are all new. Ultra Instinct is a very different form from any other Goku has gotten. Even the Kamehameha against Kefla tried something new with the technique.

    I mean if it bothers you no matter what, nothing to do here, but I'm okay with it if it at least makes sense in context. If it's used because of a legitimate reason. The Mafuba in the FT arc made sense to me, too. It wasn't *only* there for a callback. There were other reasons for it to be used.
    Well,to be fair, Krillin did design Kienzan in Z. And against Saibaimen he used different technique than ever before or after. And he acted as a "proxy" for genki dama (funny that first use of genki dama was more creative than any subsequent). Also Kienzan spam only really happened against Freeza, he became irrelevant fighting-wise after that, and before I think he only used it once against Nappa and Vegeta respectively. Tenshinhan's complaint is legit, but he did fade into obscurity in Z in general. And it's not like Goku didn't use Kamehameha in fresh ways in Z, "IT + Kamehameha" combo became so iconic that it become a signature move in few games. Against Freeza I remember him preparing two from under the water and firing while stying hidden. I agree that UI is nice change compared to other forms.

    And Mafuba in FT arc... seeing that it had no consequences and even the "I trained hard to perfect Mafuba but I fucked up with the jar and can't even use it now" joke was there in the original DB... it served as nothing more than a callback. It made sense in the context, but I need more than "making sense" in fiction to entertain me.
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  8. #3128

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    I don't know. All I need for stories to work is for them to make sense. (Jk, I get what you mean).

    If it's just not enough for you (general you), nothing to do.

    With the Mafuba it was also kind of a given it wouldn't work against Zamasu because that would be pretty anti-climatic. So was it something smart to address by the characters or a lazy callback? It clearly fit into the narrative as it's own thing, which is why I'm personally okay with it.
    If you think about it, Gohan and Krillin in particular not having new techniques makes sense because Gohan doesn't train actively and Krillin quit being a martial artist for a while. Krillin got back to it the at least the several-month gap before the ToP. It shows Krillin was actually serious about it, which is cool. Seeing the old villains in the illusion forest also makes sense for Krillin's development.

    I actually didn't bring examples of the callbacks that bother me. Obviously Kale, but at least she kinda learns to control it. But definitely all of the RoF arc. It literally had no reason to happen outside of appealing to fans. What was the point of Ginyu there? I can't really reason it with any logical story logic.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; January 21st, 2018 at 04:59 AM.

  9. #3129

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Episode was boring, all the "Freeza is so manipulative and ahead of everything" wankering is making me feel bad for liking him, but Gohan is out so I'm fine with it. Now I'm in for whatever comes, specially Toppo training to be a GoD finally being inserted in the anime.
    I suppose next episode will be Freeza's last one since Toppo is the ultimate demon killer and he is the ultimate demon, but I wonder if he was about to pull something when Gohan intervened in the fight... that shot of him seemed suspicious.
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  10. #3130

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Well, there goes my dream of Gohan being the last man standing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
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  11. #3131

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    at this point, i wonder if anyone knows what to do with Gohan
    or cares enough to do anything with him

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  12. #3132

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    I just don't agree with new form = relevancy logic thing that I keep seeing with every character. The actual characterization should matter, not the transformations.

    Because Gohan getting one would probably be the most forced one. Goku and Vegeta train. Gohan's whole thing is that he's properly starting again.

    I'm still pretty sure Super (or a new series) is coming back at some point after the movie and leaving Gohan's "new form" (among other dangling plot threads like Sadala) for further story material would be good.

    If not, unlike the Buu arc Gohan specifically was at least left off at a more positive note, I think.
    Last edited by Kizuchan; January 21st, 2018 at 12:04 PM.

  13. #3133

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Some fans really want Gohan to be "el blanco" and be some kind of god, but I've appreciated the fact that well, he's accomplished. One of the smartest minds out there, a loving wife, a child, a happy family, academia position...I don't need him to ohko everyone to like him.

  14. #3134

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    But none of those archivements matter for the average anime fan, they don't involve beating anyone up.
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  15. #3135

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    Ahhh, i was wondering why Dyspo sounded familiar. It's Bin Shimada! (Broly, Foxy, replacement Kami i think?)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    But none of those archivements matter for the average anime fan, they don't involve beating anyone up.
    alas.

  16. #3136
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Last Time, on Dragonball Discussion Z

    It didn't really bother me with Goku for some reason, but Vegeta looks fucking weird with pupils, especially with that kawaii uguu eye shine on top of that. Otherwise I'm not a diehard Gohan fan so his being eliminated doesn't bother me much, but this episode did go to reinforce how Dyspo's damaged goods and should've been disposed of (ba dum tish) after that drubbing he got from Hit if he keeps falling for the same trick again and again.
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